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(S2)E012: Renate Cremer on Effective Coaching Techniques and Leading with Emotional Intelligence

Oct 24, 2021

Announcement: Do register for the Agile Coach conference (30 March 2022) at www.gladwellacademy.com/events. Theme: ‘Changing Times Require Agile Minds’. Hosted by Gladwell Academy with a dynamic line up of speakers (amongst whom I’m honoured to be counted), it promises to be an exciting event for networking, learning and sharing experiences. For more information and the opportunity to grab an Early Bird price, go to www.gladwellacademy.com/events.

Bio:

Renate Cremer is a trainer at Gladwell Academy. Renate’s interest in learning and growth is rooted in her background as a labour and organisation psychologist. She specialised in Training & Development and has been actively involved in innovating HR processes as an HR Business Partner for companies operating globally.

Her professional background, along with a strong empathetic nature, gives Renate a wealth of knowledge about human interaction & behaviour, complex organisational structures and corporate environments. She thrives on helping individuals and groups to carve out learning paths in their professional trajectory.

Renate is an Associate Certified Coach (ACC), issued by the International Coaching Federation (ICF) and a certified Scaled Agile Program Consultant (SPC). In addition, she is authorized to teach, facilitate and examine for Agile Scrum Foundation, Professional Product Owner (PSP01), Professional Scrum Master (PSM1) of Scrum.org and is DISC certified. Renate is an authorised instructor for ICAgile.

Renate believes in continuously exploring our potential and 'a life full of learning'.

 

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Books:

Transcript:

Ula Ojiaku: Hello everyone! My guest today is Renate Cremer - an Agile Coach and Trainer with Gladwell academy. Prior to becoming an agile coach, she trained and practiced as a labour & organisation psychologist. Amongst her multiple qualifications, she is a certified SPC (Scaled Agile Program Consultant) and an Associate Certified Coach with the International Coaching Federation (ICF). She is also the chairwoman of the Agile Coach Conference – an annual event for coaches and leaders in agile teams and organisations.

I had lots of ‘ah-ha!’ moments recording this episode with Renate. We talked about what the Agile Coach does for a team and the wider organisation; explored some proven effective coaching techniques that have worked for Renate and many other interesting topics. Without further ado, my conversation with Renate. Thanks for listening and watching!

Ula Ojiaku:

Thank you so much Renate, for making the time for this conversation.

Renate Cremer:

Yeah. Thanks for inviting me.

Ula Ojiaku:

Great. My pleasure. Now, could you tell us a bit about how you ended up where you are currently right now, Renate?

Renate Cremer: 

Yeah, sure. So, I'm currently working as an Agile Coach and an Agile Trainer in a more or less consulting firm.

So, what we do is we broadcast the Agile mindset, and then see where there might be any opportunities for either individuals or teams or whole organizations to go in a transformation. And in that perspective, I'm coaching teams. So, like more operational on a team level, and it's about thinking on longer term perspective. And then your question was, how did you get there?

So, this was something that wasn't my idea in the beginning. So, I was like, when I was a kid, I wouldn't be thinking like, ‘I'm going to be an agile coach, for like, …’

Ula Ojiaku:

We didn't know what that was. I didn't know what that title was.

Renate Cremer:

It didn't even exist, maybe? I don't know. agility did. But um, no, I am coming from a family, which has really engaged in people and human behaviour and how we all relate and the community thinking and building and both of my parents are psychologists.

So, I always thought I will never ever study psychology, because the only thing we will talk about is like, what happens when we do such a thing or how do people react or what's productive, was kind of productive? And there I ended up studying psychology in the end.

Ula Ojiaku: 

Interesting. And do you have any regrets for going the path, going down that path?

Renate Cremer: 

Well, the funny thing is, it's interesting if you say this, because even as a psychology student, I went for the labour and organization. So, it's really more on teams and on work motivation and on the workplace. Because obviously, our workplace has been changing tremendously in the last decades.

And I never thought it I'm like, as a psychologist would end up in like these more organizational structures. But then the path has now been shaping just through coincidences and interested in team dynamics. And now I'm really glad that I'm here. And the funny thing is never anticipated on it happening like this.

Ula Ojiaku: 

So, how did that bridge you know, when you went into the, you studied psychology, and then you were, you specialize in, in the psychology of organizations, if I may put it that way, how did you get end up being an agile coach and trainer?

Renate Cremer: 

This basically came for you one of my friends. So, I was at that moment in a position where I was mentoring or maybe supporting team managers. So, they were facing some struggles with their team, and how could they optimize to high performance.

And my friend told me, hey, this is interesting, because what you're doing links directly to a lot of the practices we see in agility or in Scrum, even. Only you name it differently, you're talking about personality styles, or resistance or conflict behaviour.

Well, in Scrum, we use a structure. And we follow a cadence of the structure in order to resolve all the issues that you're thinking about as well. But we, there's a little bit of a gap. So, this like, I thought that in agility, we don't talk about that undercurrent, the softer side. And in psychology, we don't talk about the frameworks and the structures so those could be bridged really nicely.

Ula Ojiaku: 

Interesting and actually both are complementary because you can't have one without the other. But you need the hard, will I say data and facts but you also need the you know, the softer side because not everything is encompassed in data or framework and you have to be able to adapt to contexts.

If it were to be a computer, you know, you could put in a program and you get the same thing out consistently. But when it's humans never, you can never have the same outcome for with two things never.

Renate Cremer:

And that makes it fun as well, right?

Ula Ojiaku:

It makes it fun and yeah, and that's what (why) you know, they say variety is the spice of life.

So, what would you say then or who would you say is an agile Coach in your definition?

Renate Cremer: 

In my definition, interestingly, you specified like that, I would say that what I try to be as an agile Coach is the go-to person for either any, like, impediments that members or roles or organizations face and that you're going to think along with the person or the team in order to strive for a better next step.

And obviously, try to make it small and incremental on top of that, because it's not only about receiving questions, but on top of that, I think a very, very crucial role of an agile Coach is being the person that's able to zoom out. And looking to get a perspective, (the Agile Coach is) there to take the time to observe what's going on, and there to reflect on (what’s happening in order to identify), hey, this is what's happening. In out of (that is, based on one’s) experiences, or like knowledge or theories, we know that it (the situation) can be improved. So, let's prompt (come up with) a new idea (for solving problem) and then set (up) a pilot or an experiment (to see if this works).

Ula Ojiaku: 

Now, that's an interesting concept. And something that jumped out to me, as you were speaking, is that you know, as an Agile Coach, you zoom out… So you're looking at the big picture, not just focusing on what's happening at that time, point in time.

So, would you say that it's helps for the Agile Coach to kind of be a bit removed from… you know, what's happening as a kind of a third party, but still part of the team?

Renate Cremer: 

I think that's a nice way to phrase it. You definitely want to build on creating this trust. And this is a trustworthy relationship with psychological safety.

So, it is a connection, but then still, indeed, on a little bit of on the side, because you're not involved in the product or the solution that the team is working on, but on the process. So, you are attached and (yet) not attached.

Ula Ojiaku: 

Yeah. In a way that's a good thing to have, cos you wouldn't be as… you'll be a bit detached from the happenings and might be, hopefully a bit more objective about what's happening instead of being too emotionally attached to the outcome of conversations, for example.

So, apart from because you mentioned, you know, observing, helping the teams to, you know, look at their processes, and hopefully, you know, work towards getting better outcomes. Now, what else, what other roles could an Agile Coach play?

Renate Cremer: 

It's interesting (thing) is that it's very diverse in the perspective of ‘are you an internal agile coach, or external?’ So you can really go from operational to tactical to strategic decisions or application of what you're doing.

So, in a kickstart of a new transformation, you would be very operational, teaching about the agile mindset. So, you share the (Agile) manifesto and the principles behind it, the values that we know like respect and transparency and openness and such, and really advocating why this can be relevant, then we can address the phrase of you better be agile than just do agile or… with Scrum, it's the same, because otherwise you're just missing your goals of coming to high performance.

Yeah! So, that would be like, like very operational, but also on road mapping in where do we see an organization, like moving towards? Or how can we optimize the time to market or new markets to reach for customers? This could also be in collaboration with an Agile Coach.

Ula Ojiaku: 

Yes. So, what about, you know, the framework proposed by Lyssa Adkins, which you also taught us during the IC Agile Coach course? Because I was your student on that course. And I really found it very valuable.

So, I mean, in her framework, she was also suggesting - you've already mentioned the part of a teacher. There's also facilitator, maybe technical expertise or business expertise and all that. What's your view on that (i.e. Lyssa Adkins’) framework and guidance?

Renate Cremer: 

It's a beautiful framework to explore, your competences also your background and optimizing your skill.

So, Lyssa Adkins is talking about the process side; you want to facilitate the Agile process moving further. This would be… like, with your detachment you’ve spoken about before, you're next to the team. I think you walk the path together (with the team). And then like the team executed, the organization executes, but you're like facilitating it to be happening.

And on the same process side, you also mentioned mentoring. This is where you bring in your experience that you have been gaining with other assignments or maybe at other departments in the organization. And you mention okay, this is a question that has been raised, like, for example, how to move forward with a team that has… ermmm.. too little time and therefore cannot execute on Scrum because it will become (an) overhead. And then from your experience, you're going to share some ideas. That's on the process side.

And on the other side, content wise, which is what we just touched upon with teaching. It's also important to share and advocate the knowledge of the agile reasoning and mindset and this - the teaching, it would be really transferring knowledge. So, then you're the content owner, you transfer the knowledge. Yeah.

And on the coaching side, (even though) you have the answers yourself – of course the coachee has the answers herself. You're just asking questions to bring that further (that is, draw them out). Yeah. So that's the four competencies from our framework.

Ula Ojiaku: 

Thanks for going through those, Renate.

You know, when I mention the word ‘coach’, most people you know, tend to… their minds tend to go to the sporting context. And sometimes I've had to resort to explaining my role as an Agile Coach in that context because that’s something they can identify with. And I usually tell them, ‘you know what? The coach might not be the best player at that sport, but because they have that – to use your words – they’re able to zoom out and see the big picture. They are committed to making (enabling) the players to play their best game. And to equip them to play their best game. The same thing with me as an Agile Coach. I may not know the intricacies of your role as well as you do – and that’s ok. The key thing is I’m here to help you to play your best game and to incrementally get better over time.

Now, what’s your view on this perspective? Are there any parallels between, you know, the role of an Agile Coach and a coach in the sporting arena?

Renate Cremer: 

Yeah, yeah, I love the way how you, you explain this just now as well, because there, there are definitely parallels and as a sports coach, you will help the team in order to come to that high performing, I love the word high performing, because we wanted to have the same in the workplace once optimization of all these individuals that are all totally different, that have their own story to tell that communicate and behave in their own way. And how can we, yeah, be undecide? Indeed, with us, and then and not being like a content owner, but you're more process owner, so to push them forward? And to be some sort of like, what would you like to call as well as servant leader, so it's not about you, it's about the group. And it's about the transformation there and the transformation goals, they set themselves.

So, if the parallel works, and it's, it's a proper way to explain, and definitely that works, because maybe previously, we have been thinking about managers in a traditional form, which are maybe more of the expert, which tell you what to do. And we're nowhere like that, we really want to see like the you, you know, all the access to expertise, and you have the expertise and you know, about all the like relevant information with regards to the solution you're heading towards, and a coach is just there to make that more smooth.

Ula Ojiaku: 

Great response. Now, from your perspective, on your experience, what are some of the effective coaching techniques that have worked for you?

Renate Cremer: 

Yeah. Yeah, interesting. This is something that a lot of coaches are like, exploring well, what has impact? And how do we move this forward? Because there's so much to do, and what will be our first step.

So, what I love to do, just with any new assignment or like team is just first explore the context as it is now. So, setting interviews with each thing, every one of the team, and the people surrounding the team, or the organization like the most relevant stakeholders, and just assess, where are we at, what do we really, really see that is that helps us to move further and what are like, blocking issues? And if you assess all these blocking issues, then that's your first step in towards making your roadmap for new interventions.

And then very targeted, very, very specific, it's about active listening and asking powerful questions like, what makes your work valuable for you? What provides you energy? What's your energy drainer? Like these are the questions that sometimes, people are not even used to, like responding to or getting asked.

Ula Ojiaku: 

So, what makes a powerful question powerful?

Renate Cremer: 

<Long pause> If there's a silence like this… so this is what we have powerful question. If it's a question, I would say that brings reflection on where we're at now, but what would I actually want? And then the next step would be how to get there.

Ula Ojiaku: 

Great, so powerful question makes the receiver of the question reflect on where they are now, where they want to be moving forward and also how to get there?

Renate Cremer: 

Yeah. Oh, and you need multiple powerful questions in order to address all of these but indeed, this is what we're trying to achieve here.

Ula Ojiaku: 

Yes, in the coaching process. So, what do you say for every coaching session that you do and do you always like sets targets for the conversation in terms of expected outputs and outcomes? Or do you sometimes have, you know, like, well, I say like free form conversations which with no set agenda?

Renate Cremer: 

Well, in even if you have an informal conversation, it's very, very helpful to think and think yourself of what do I want to get out of it? What should the other person get out of this, but also just address it?

So, just before this conversation, we had a coaching conversation, which was about an hour or a little less than that, I would always start with, obviously, how are you? And then what's going on, but what would make this conversation impactful for you?

Because our time is spare (precious), and if, like in informal conversations are important, so you do need to, like, have icebreakers and connect to each other. But I would always want to know, like, what's in (on) your mind? What do you want to talk about? Well, where are we heading towards?

Ula Ojiaku: 

Yeah. So that you're able to evaluate at the end of the conversation, you know, was it really successful or not?

Renate Cremer: 

This is, this is indeed one of the more important things and on top of that, also to make sure that we don't go into assumptions because there's like, our, brain is full of feeling… like continuously filling gaps.

So, we continuously go and jump into assumptions and we anticipate on what the other person most likely wants to do but without checking, we never know.

Ula Ojiaku: 

True. And the thing is, we see the world from our worldview, which is coloured by our individual experiences and what we've been taught. And for each person, even if we're from the same family, sometimes, we still tend to have like different worldviews, because we have our personalities and all that.

So, I really like the fact that you pointed out, you know, you don't want people to base, to kind of impose their assumptions - unstated assumptions especially - in a conversation.

Now, you are also hugely into the you know, emotional quotient and leadership. Could you tell us about this?

Renate Cremer:

Yeah. So, this actually originated again, back to my studies, when I did some research in conflict resolution, and within a manager or leader in how to deal with relational conflict and task conflict, and this is where my interest it's like, started to happen with regards to KV actually need conflict as well in order to innovate again. So, that triggered me a bit. And then what we noticed is that our leaders that had a higher like EQ how you say it out? Yes, Emotional quotients. They, it was easier for them to adapt towards going from a like disruptive conflict towards a productive conflict because we need to conflict but they need to help us instead of totally block us out.

Ula Ojiaku:

Yeah.

Renate Cremer: 

So, it's dependent on the leader in order to, like, tilt the conflict into a new way of behaviour. And I thought that was extremely relevant because we, as a society, focus on IQ, like the intelligence rather than on the emotional quotient. So, how can we have such a focus to that intelligence in IQ, but then EQ is not there? So that's, that's fascinating.

Ula Ojiaku: 

Yeah, I agree that, you know, for a long time, the focus has been on the IQ, you know, the intelligent quotient how intelligent someone is, and you know, who's admitted to the Mensa, I can't remember what the name of that society is. But life is not just about, you know, one type of intelligence.

Can one improve one’s EQ and then, if so, how can leaders identify where they are and what to do to improve this?

Renate Cremer: 

Well, if you find me the answer to the first question, then we're gonna start our own organizations together. Because this is a few, I think, two years ago, I was with one of the one of PO in the training, we were talking about this, and we made a little workshop about emotional intelligence. And then we went into some research and then it stated that you like very like in life that I'm going to frame to now, but on this side of the spectrum, you have people that are totally experts, they know every single detail about one element of whatever technical expertise they're in.

And on this side of the spectrum, you have people that are more generalists, and they are very this meta viewing, or they love it and they are about narratives and storytelling. Well, if on this side there, there would be experts, you go for storytelling, and they provide you facts.

And we try to link this, because in the brain, you see that it's about bridging from this side of the brain towards the other side and maybe the neurons, would you hire all over the place.

So, it's just a different brain structure, which fascinated me and every kind of, it blocked because, if it's a structure in your brain, and it's how are the connections with the neurons are made, then it is trainable. I definitely think it's to train in a certain extent, but I don't have the answer to what extent because maybe, obviously, what you mentioned, so it's sports, maybe you're perfect, you like running and then you have your effort actually, body for running. I don't and that's in our like, how we are like the built the structure of our body.

And we can train it obviously, but I will never be as good as in running as you are. And I think this is what we try to what we want to explore with regards to this whole leadership topic.

Everybody can set the fundament and that I'm 100% sure of that's just a matter of being aware of the impact of emotional intelligence and intelligence and training yourself in asking the right questions or stopping and doing in the meta viewing and going into system thinking and, and like etc. But the answer to how to assess where you're at, I'm not sure.

Ula Ojiaku: 

Well, I think it's a homework for myself. Maybe you can feel free to join me if you want to look at that.

So, what books would you would you recommend for someone who wants to learn more about these topics?

Renate Cremer:

All right, great. Great. Yeah. So um, there's definitely Daniel Goleman, which is called, Emotional Intelligence he's really known. So, these books I'm really fascinated about just another one would be the book, Empathy, which is obviously there on the shelf, but just about Agile right now.

And then on top of that, with regards to this, the brain structure and how to go around like this flexibility in moving for motivation, styles, behaviour, I like Switch a lot. So, it's very interesting on, like, how does our rational and our cognitive relate to each other and how can we even use to go through it, a transformational journey.

Ula Ojiaku: 

Yeah, I think Switch is written, was written by the brothers, Chip and Danny I believe, yeah, I have listened to a couple of their books. And yeah, and have you enjoyed that writing style? Sorry to interrupt that, was there any more books you had in mind to share?

Renate Cremer: 

Yeah, the last one I keep on referring every single time is the Power of Habit and why? Because the principle of the Power of Habit it is so simple. It's, we are all known to go into this habit and it connects us to assumptions and to jumping into conclusions. That's habits because we need that in order to measure that, not getting overwhelmed, or that they're like we can handle everything that happens during the day, knowing at the workplace, what our habits are, and how to move from the one trigger to.

Ula Ojiaku:

A reaction?

Renate Cremer:

Yeah, no, not a reaction. But a reward from the trigger to a reward, we can build ourselves new routines. And I think that was really fascinating.

Because as a leader, what, also as a Coach, or also as an individual, think about triggers, rewards, and then building new routines in order to go into change behaviour.

Ula Ojiaku: 

It's almost like, the book, it reminds me of the book, Atomic Habits by I can't, is it James, I can't remember the author. But you know, there was also something about when you want to create positive habits, also kind of associate with it, you know, some sort of reward is almost like the Pavlovian response, where you know, but you know, the experimenter was, he would ring the bell, and feed the dogs. And then at the point in time, where he rang the bell, the dogs were salivating.

In the same way, for example, if I want to get into a more, you know, healthy routine, exercising regularly, I could put my you know, place my exercise gear in place, and then maybe reward myself with an episode of my favourites series, you know, for that day, so I'm associating it with at the end of this exercise, I'll get to watch 30 minutes of my favourite series. And at some point, in time, there'll be a positive connection between these beneficial habits, and something that I'm going to get from it as well.

Renate Cremer:  Yeah, it looks so similar. And just if we bridge that to our workplace culture of an organization has exactly the same patterns, right? So, how can we use any relevant triggers in order to bring ourselves to our transformational behaviour, because that's what we want to do.

Ula Ojiaku: 

But it wouldn't mean this is something I could talk about for ages and ages but we don't have the time. Now, but I'll ask you this one last question.

Now, once there are meant to be like positive associations, or we should create that those connections between you know, the change or the actions we need to make towards the change and positive rewards that would be associated with them, is it possible that at some point in time, you know, these could be turned into weapons, you know, like a carrot and a stick?

And if it's possible, how can we strike the balance survey, you know, we don't go too much into okay saying, okay, we're getting people to conform, or they would just temporarily adapt how they're behaving just because of the reward. They're not doing it, you know, it doesn't get to be a culture or a norm, but it's more like, okay, this is a behaviour, I think leadership would reward and I'll do it as long as it pays.

Renate Cremer: 

Would you say that you like the context of reward in this extent? How do you, do you see that as a, like a salary or bonus or would we refer reward is more than justice?

Ula Ojiaku: 

It could be anything. I mean, because for different people that vary, I mean, and research has proven that there is an extent to which you improve someone's salary, then it stops being of any consequence at all.

So, it now goes into the back to Simon Sinek’s… who was it that wrote (the book)…? But yeah, so there is a limit to what you know, so in a bonus, or salary could do, it does to an extent, improve people's performance, but at a point in time, it stops the matter. So, reward could be anything.

Renate Cremer: 

Right. And yeah, so I agree with you. There, like there's been like the intrinsic or extrinsic kind of reward, right? And if we can find a way to connect to everybody's intrinsic rewards, then I think it's really about something doing for yourself, rather than because leadership wants to.

Ula Ojiaku: 

Now, that's a great answer. Thanks, Renate.

So, thanks for sharing, you know, some book recommendations with us. These will be in the show notes. Now, would there be anything else you'd like the audience to know about?

Renate Cremer: 

Right. Yeah. So, what's interesting, what we see happening in like the function of being an agile coach is that we really see a need for communities. And people are trying to find each other talking about what we have been talking about today as well, what is our techniques, but also what is our perspective, which way are we heading us like a community of coaching and an ambassador of the Agile Movement?

And therefore, at Gladwell Academy, where I'm working, we introduced a conference, which is the Agile Coaching Conference. And we're heading towards the new edition on the second edition. And it would be really great to just to spread the word, because there aren't going to have like lovely speakers like yourself as well. So, glad that you can join us.

Ula Ojiaku:

My pleasure.

Renate Cremer:

Yeah. And I think it's a great start to sharing all our knowledge and ideas, because this is something we can never do alone and we need each other.

Ula Ojiaku: 

Definitely. And it is an exciting, it promises to be an exciting event. So, could you clarify, is it going to be in-person or virtual events?

Renate Cremer: 

Right? Yeah. So obviously, we don't know exactly what's going to happen. But at this moment, we anticipate an event in Amsterdam, obviously, which speakers locally but also virtually connecting to arts with breakout so that we go into small workshops with keynotes etc. If by things might change, and obviously we go 100% remote, which we did in the previous year, as well.

Ula Ojiaku: 

Okay, and where can the audience find out more about the Agile Coaching Conference, as well as how can they reach you?

Renate Cremer: 

Right? Yeah, so if there's any interest into the gladwellacademy.com website, this is where we indeed find both are efficient on transformation, the coaching and the training itself and also a direct link to events and then it says the Agile Coach Conference. So, this is the best way to reach out.

Ula Ojiaku: 

Okay. And what about you personally? Are you on social media, do you, welcome people getting in touch with you?

Renate Cremer:

Yeah, definitely on their LinkedIn, it's an open account. So, Renate Cremer and then you find me for Gladwell, always very happy to connect and also to share some ideas for it and messages. Okay,

Ula Ojiaku: 

Thank you so much Renate for sharing these details, we will put them in the show notes for the audience to access. Now, before we round up, do you have any final words for the audience to close this out?

Renate Cremer: 

Definitely, definitely. I'm so glad that these sorts of conversations are happening because this is the only way to start talking about like, what are we trying to make happen? How do we support each other, as Agile Ambassadors and, and just learning from each other is as in the ideal mindset? So, keep on connecting all the dots and trying to find how can we best work together.

Ula Ojiaku: 

Great words of wisdom Renate. Thank you so much for sharing your vast knowledge and experience with us today.

Renate Cremer:

Thank you, Ula.

Ula Ojiaku:

My pleasure!

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